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Posted by: Roger (66.108.246.108) on May 29, 2003 at 07:43:53

Location: NYC

In Reply to: What Works? posted by royce on May 29, 2003 at 00:11:53:

I confess I'm having trouble getting to the root of your argument. Depending on the part of your message I read, it seems to say any of the following:

1. There are lots of ways to come to the attention of an agency, so why not pay me money to try mine?

Comment: There are hundreds of ineffective but expensive ways to go about breaking into modeling the wrong way. Coming up with yet another bad way to do it hardly means models should rush right over and spend their money on it.

2. Never mind that a photo book has never worked before, this time it will. Why? Because times have changed, and now old technology (books) will work where new technology (websites) doesn't.

Comment: Bad ideas are bad ideas, and nothing has changed to make that untrue.

3. Models should spend money on expensive "professional pictures" before trying cheaper alterntives, like snapshots by Uncle Elmo.

Comment: In the quest to be accepted by an agency there is a time and place for having professional pictures done. But that time is after other, less expensive approaches have failed, and (as Michael says) needs to be tailored to the preferences of the agency or market targetted. Generic "professional pictures" aren't a good idea - they just line the pockets of test photographers.

4. "I believe the issue here is not whether or not it (The Modeling Directory) will be used as a tool, but whether or not the consistent quality of the images and service validates and allows it to be used as a tool."

Comment: This has me baffled. It seems to say, "Well, we know nobody will actually use this thing, because they never have, but they could use it if only they wanted to, so you ought to pay to be in it." This has the scent of the old "if only pigs could fly" argument. Pigs can't fly. Agencies don't pay much attention to these kinds of books, magazines or sites. Wishing it were different doesn't make it so.

5. Test photographers don't have the ethics to give good advice to wannabe models, and charge full rates to hopefuls with no hope.

Comment: I'm not about to debate with you the ethics of test photographers. We have seen some egregious examples of lack of same on this very forum, and it's an issue everywhere. But I find ludicrous the suggestion that photographers should lower their rates to models who can't possibly make it and, presumably, charge higher rates to the better models. "Oh, you are really pretty, so I'll charge you more to take your picture." That doesn't make a lot of sense.

6. "Do we not have a moral and ethical obligation to give our perception on their potential marketability in the fashion industry?"

"Comment: I suppose it depends on who we are. Yes, I do, because I make my living from getting work for models, and don't have the luxury of dealing with every hopeful who comes my way. I have to be selective. Some test photographers choose to be selective in who they work with, or to try to guide aspiring models into market segments or types of photos that are appropriate for them. That seems to me to be a good thing. Others take the position (which I believe to be less than fully candid) that they are not in a position to judge the potential of a model, and so offer no advice, just take the pictures the model wants. Still others actively recruit models they know (or should know) have no realistic chance of being a professional model, tell her things that are either untrue or totally inappropriate for her, and take pictures that are of no professional value for that person. Somewhere along that spectrum is the boundary of ethical responsibility; reasonable people can disagree on exactly where it lies.

But given that problem, it provides neither excuse nor license to say, "Well, lots of other people aren't being ethical, so why not try my thing that won't work either?"

7. "So can we honestly say that this opportunity, one with the consistent "slimness" as virtually all of the "opportunities" the world of fashion and modeling has imposed on all but a chosen few, is posed as anything more or less than that- An opportunity."

Comment: This seems to say, "Nothing else works very well, and my thing won't work very well either, so it's no worse than all the other things, so people ought to do it."

Here's the truth: the great majority of fashion agencies say, and mean, that they prefer simple snapshots or Polaroids from aspiring models. That doesn't always work either, but it has the great benefits of being both cheap and what they want.

The world is full of cyber-heroes (and people offline as well) full of quick fixes that they say will solve a model's problems, but that are really designed only to put money in the pockets of said "hero".

Michael got it right.

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Comments:
: I confess I'm having trouble getting to the root of your argument.  Depending on the part of your message I read, it seems to say any of the following:

: 1.  There are lots of ways to come to the attention of an agency, so why not pay me money to try mine?

: <b>Comment:  There are hundreds of ineffective but expensive ways to go about breaking into modeling the wrong way.  Coming up with yet another bad way to do it hardly means models should rush right over and spend their money on it.</b>

: 2.  Never mind that a photo book has never worked before, this time it will.  Why?  Because times have changed, and now old technology (books) will work where new technology (websites) doesn't.

: <b>Comment:  Bad ideas are bad ideas, and nothing has changed to make that untrue.</b>

: 3.  Models should spend money on expensive "professional pictures" before trying cheaper alterntives, like snapshots by Uncle Elmo.

: <b>Comment:  In the quest to be accepted by an agency there is a time and place for having professional pictures done.  But that time is after other, less expensive approaches have failed, and (as Michael says) needs to be tailored to the preferences of the agency or market targetted.  Generic "professional pictures" aren't a good idea - they just line the pockets of test photographers.</b>

: 4.  "I believe the issue here is not whether or not it (The Modeling Directory) will be used as a tool, but whether or not the consistent quality of the images and service validates and allows it to be used as a tool."

: <b>Comment:  This has me baffled.  It seems to say, "Well, we know nobody will actually use this thing, because they never have, but they <u>could</u> use it if only they wanted to, so you ought to pay to be in it."  This has the scent of the old "if only pigs could fly" argument.  Pigs can't fly.  Agencies don't pay much attention to these kinds of books, magazines or sites.  Wishing it were different doesn't make it so.</b>

: 5.  Test photographers don't have the ethics to give good advice to wannabe models, and charge full rates to hopefuls with no hope.

: <b>Comment:  I'm not about to debate with you the ethics of test photographers.  We have seen some egregious examples of lack of same on this very forum, and it's an issue everywhere.  But I find ludicrous the suggestion that photographers should lower their rates to models who <i>can't possibly make it</i> and, presumably, charge higher rates to the better models.  "Oh, you are really pretty, so I'll charge you more to take your picture."  That doesn't make a lot of sense.</b>

: 6.  "Do we not have a moral and ethical obligation to give our perception on their potential marketability in the fashion industry?"

: <b>"Comment:  I suppose it depends on who we are.  Yes, I do, because I make my living from getting work for models, and don't have the luxury of dealing with every hopeful who comes my way.  I have to be selective.  Some test photographers choose to be selective in who they work with, or to try to guide aspiring models into market segments or types of photos that are appropriate for them.  That seems to me to be a good thing.  Others take the position (which I believe to be less than fully candid) that they are not in a position to judge the potential of a model, and so offer no advice, just take the pictures the model wants.  Still others actively recruit models they know (or should know) have no realistic chance of being a professional model, tell her things that are either untrue or totally inappropriate for her, and take pictures that are of no professional value for that person.  Somewhere along that spectrum is the boundary of ethical responsibility; reasonable people can disagree on exactly where it lies.

: But given that problem, it provides neither excuse nor license to say, "Well, lots of other people aren't being ethical, so why not try my thing that won't work either?"</b>

: 7.  "So can we honestly say that this opportunity, one with the consistent "slimness" as virtually all of the "opportunities" the world of fashion and modeling has imposed on all but a chosen few, is posed as anything more or less than that- An opportunity."

: <b>Comment:  This seems to say, "Nothing else works very well, and my thing won't work very well either, so it's no worse than all the other things, so people ought to do it."</b>

: Here's the truth:  the great majority of fashion agencies say, and mean, that they prefer simple snapshots or Polaroids from aspiring models.  That doesn't always work either, but it has the great benefits of being both cheap and what they want.

: The world is full of cyber-heroes (and people offline as well) full of quick fixes that they say will solve a model's problems, but that are really designed only to put money in the pockets of said "hero".

: Michael got it right.


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