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Posted by: Roger (66.108.246.108) on November 24, 2002 at 10:02:03

In Reply to: A matter of opinion posted by David on November 23, 2002 at 22:32:15:

: In fact I do believe I am qualified to judge commercial and editorial photography.

Perhaps you are, but that misses the point. JT doesn't claim to be a commercial or editorial photographer, nor does he claim that his workshops will make someone qualified to do commercial or editorial work. He works in a different genre, one in which the criteria are different and publication is much less a measure of anything. It's entirely possible to be an excellent, even a "top" wedding, portrait, fine art, beauty or glamour photographer and never have a commercial or editorial publication.

Now let's keep this in perspective, and in context.

: It is on JT's web site that he claims that participants will " learn and relax with top industry professionals", I don't think one who is unpublished could claim to be a " top industry professional"

I don't doubt your word. It's probably true that somewhere on "JT's website" that the term "top industry professionals" is used. But it isn't in his post, and it isn't in the page devoted to the event that he is advertising, and it isn't a term I think he would use to describe himself. In other events sponsored by JT there has been participation from a lot of working professionals, with lots of tear sheets. The term "top" is a judgment call.

In passing I'd note that there is at least one other workshop being advertised on the forum right now. That one is run by a photographer with hundreds of editorial tearsheets. Well, not fashion or commercial tears, but editorial tears nonetheless. And he can't begin to hold a candle to JT Smith as a glamour or beauty photographer. "Published" isn't all that meaningful unless context is considered.

: It is quite true that teaching itself is an art (or skill) and JT may be a fabulous teacher, I asked what qualifies JT as a "mentor".

I'm a little lost here. The "mentoring" is stated to take place entirely in one event. My brief pass through Webster's suggests that "mentor" means "a : a trusted counselor or guide b : TUTOR, COACH". Maybe you know how someone can be a "fabulous teacher" and not a "trusted counsellor, tutor and coach" but I don't.

: But again, since you ask, I have spent the last 20 years as a full time professional photographer . . ."

That may well be true. But if you go to the web sites of about half the people who post here you will find the claim that they are professionals with 20+ years experience. JT is something of a newbie - he only claims 16 years. It doesn't take very long to sort out who actually knows something about photography and who doesn't, but you don't get it from the claims or the years as a photographer. Lots of people here have one year's experience 20+ times. Around here we are all from Missouri: show us, don't tell us.

: Taking "glamour" photos may be fun but if it is proper to put up "model beware" and "scam alert" postings for wanna be models, maybe we should at least also question what is being sold to wannabe photographers.

We should indeed. But JT Smith, his work and his workshops are very well known here. I don't personally know him, and haven't been to any of his events. But I know many people who have, and I've seen the results posted here for a very long time. On these forums, when someone goes to a JT event they know very well what they will be getting, and there has been ample feedback (usually very positive) from those who have gotten it. It seems to me that attention to "scam alerts" could better be devoted to something other than JT Smith workshops.

From your post above:

: Often there are warning posted to model about agencies that charge for photos etc. A legimate agency will not charge a model, either she has "it" or not.

Legitimate agencies do in fact "charge models" - at least in the sense of sending them to photographers that the model will have to pay for photographs. Frequently that is structured as the agency fronting the money and taking it out of the earnings of the model (that is, charging her). If you don't know that, I have to question your experience in the "editorial and commercial" industries.

• One of the things that I do

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Comments:
: <b>: In fact I do believe I am qualified to judge commercial and editorial photography.</b>

: Perhaps you are, but that misses the point.  JT doesn't claim to be a commercial or editorial photographer, nor does he claim that his workshops will make someone qualified to do commercial or editorial work.  He works in a different genre, one in which the criteria are different and publication is much less a measure of anything.  It's entirely possible to be an excellent, even a "top" wedding, portrait, fine art, beauty or glamour photographer and never have a commercial or editorial publication.

: Now let's keep this in perspective, and in context.

: <b>: It is on JT's web site that he claims that participants will " learn and relax with top industry professionals", I don't think one who is unpublished could claim to be a " top industry professional"</b>

: I don't doubt your word.  It's probably true that somewhere on "JT's website" that the term "top industry professionals" is used.  But it isn't in his post, and it isn't in the page devoted to the event that he is advertising, and it isn't a term I think he would use to describe himself.  In other events sponsored by JT there has been participation from a lot of working professionals, with lots of tear sheets.  The term "top" is a judgment call.

: In passing I'd note that there is at least one other workshop being advertised on the forum right now.  That one is run by a photographer with hundreds of editorial tearsheets.  Well, not fashion or commercial tears, but editorial tears nonetheless.  And he can't begin to hold a candle to JT Smith as a glamour or beauty photographer.  "Published" isn't all that meaningful unless context is considered.

: <b>: It is quite true that teaching itself is an art (or skill) and JT may be a fabulous teacher, I asked what qualifies JT as a "mentor".</b>

: I'm a little lost here.  The "mentoring" is stated to take place entirely in one event.  My brief pass through Webster's suggests that "mentor" means <i>"a : a trusted counselor or guide b : TUTOR, COACH"</i>.  Maybe you know how someone can be a "fabulous teacher" and not a "trusted counsellor, tutor and coach" but I don't.

: <b>: But again, since you ask, I have spent the last 20 years as a full time professional photographer . . ."</b>

: That may well be true.  But if you go to the web sites of about half the people who post here you will find the claim that they are professionals with 20+ years experience.  JT is something of a newbie - he only claims 16 years.  It doesn't take very long to sort out who actually knows something about photography and who doesn't, but you don't get it from the claims or the years as a photographer.  Lots of people here have one year's experience 20+ times.  Around here we are all from Missouri:  show us, don't tell us.

: <b>: Taking "glamour" photos may be fun but if it is proper to put up "model beware" and "scam alert" postings for wanna be models, maybe we should at least also question what is being sold to wannabe photographers.</b>

: We should indeed.  But JT Smith, his work and his workshops are very well known here.  I don't personally know him, and haven't been to any of his events.  But I know many people who have, and I've seen the results posted here for a very long time.  On these forums, when someone goes to a JT event they know very well what they will be getting, and there has been ample feedback (usually very positive) from those who have gotten it.  It seems to me that attention to "scam alerts" could better be devoted to something other than JT Smith workshops.

: From your post above:

: <b>: Often there are warning posted to model about agencies that charge for photos etc. A legimate agency will not charge a model, either she has "it" or not.</b>

: Legitimate agencies do in fact "charge models" - at least in the sense of sending them to photographers that the model will have to pay for photographs.  Frequently that is structured as the agency fronting the money and taking it out of the earnings of the model (that is, charging her).  If you don't know that, I have to question your experience in the "editorial and commercial" industries.


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